Today, we deep dive into the topic of reframing our thoughts. In this episode, leadership expert Tammy Heermann explores the power of mindset and its influence on behaviors and outcomes.

Tammy openly discusses her path to mastering discernment and conquering perfectionism, advising that we begin by clarifying our vision and the impact we aim to make.

Women in leadership can effectively challenge biases and shift perceptions by employing strategic questioning and adjusting their communication approaches.

Listen to this episode of Pity Party Over to learn how to acquire a positive, successful mindset by crafting our internal narratives.

Spotify - https://tinyurl.com/yc8h9d6p

Apple Podcast - https://tinyurl.com/44ds566y

Google Podcast - https://tinyurl.com/3nt3y7np

Amazon Music - https://tinyurl.com/534fyuk5

Podbean - https://tinyurl.com/mr2vc8zh

Pity Party Over is also available on Castbox, Castro, Deezer, iHeartRadio, Listen Notes, Overcast, Player FM, Pocket Cast, Pod Bay, Podbean App, Podchaser, Podvine, Postcast Addict, Stitcher, TuneIn

Subscribe to Pity Party Over - https://www.alygn.company/pitypartyover

Sign up for a complimentary Live Session: https://www.alygn.company/livesession

Managerial & Leadership Development - https://www.alygn.company/

Contact Stephen - stephen.matini@alygn.company

Connect with Stephen - https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenmatini/

#tammyHeermannn #reframing #reframingthoughts #mindset #strategy #management #leadership #leadershipdevelopment #podcast #pitypartyover #stephenmatini #alygn

TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini: You are an author. When that idea came to you, how did it happen?

Tammy Heermann: It was more like when I worked in the consulting company. And so part of my job was to write and to blog and to speak. And because I had two authors that were, you know, on the team, Leanne and, and someone else, Vince, I kind of saw how it worked. And so I think the difference between, you know, fiction, I believe you need so much creativity, you do need that inspiration for business books or self-help books is more like how do I get everything out of my brain that I've learned in the last however many years in a way that is digestible, entertaining, relevant, credible, all of that. So I think it's a very different process than a fiction where, you know, you are literally inventing characters. And for me it was like, okay, you know, this'll be an important tool for my business. It's something I thought, can I do this? But I think it's a bit different than fiction.

Stephen Matini: Was it harder or easier than you anticipated?

Tammy Heermann: Oh, way harder. And I think it's not just the intellectual, like it's hard, you know, it's hard to, to actually write. It was more the emotional challenge that surprised me, the ups and downs and as you're kind of reliving all your own stories and you know, you dig deep in like, why do I think this way wasn't my childhood, what bad bosses have I had? What critical moments have I had? So it was very, very emotional. And then it happened during the pandemic. So that was a whole time in life for everyone. That was tough.

Stephen Matini: Do you feel that you have become somehow a different person, a different professional as a result of going through the process or writing your book?

Tammy Heermann: I think it just solidified for me, you know, I have some insights to share, some wisdom. I, I think it just gave me confidence that, you know, my experience is valuable.

Stephen Matini: You know, a lot of people would love to write a book. A lot of people would like to start businesses. A lot of people have all kinds of dreams, you know, in the drawer. And somehow for whatever the reason they, they stay there for the longest time. What made you finally hop and do it?

Tammy Heermann: . I think it was a challenge. So Leanne and my other boss, they really believed in me. So apparently I can write, well, I don't enjoy it, but you know, it was something that I was fairly good at. And she said, I'm taking one of your articles and I'm gonna give it to publisher. She was working with. She said, can I do that? I said, sure. And they gave it and they said, do you think there's something here? And they're like, absolutely. And then, then it was just up to me to say yes or no, okay, am I doing this or not? She kept saying, Tammy, you have things to share with the world. Like, like you kind of owe it to people to share it. And, and so I was like, okay, I'm doing this.

Stephen Matini: How did you come up with a title? Because the title is such an important thing.

Tammy Heermann: Yeah. And so that's where it really helped to work with an editor. And so part of my process was with the editor, my whole philosophy on learning and, and everything is about our mindset first and we have to dig into that. And so I knew it was always going to be something around mindset or reframing or rethinking or rewriting our story, whatever it is. So, you know, we had the, what the concept was, but then landing on it is just a whole lot of brainstorming, trial and error, living with it, testing it out with people saying it, here's my book I'm writing, here's what it's called. How does it feel? Do they get it? So you kind of almost do a lot of testing as well. I think in the nonfiction space, that's an important thing to do. I think in, in fiction it's probably less relevant to test it with other people.

Stephen Matini: I have the same thoughts that you have only God knows if I can write. The process is enjoyable for the vast majority. And it, and it gets really enjoyable when I stop thinking about it has to work, you know, someone has to like it, it has to be perfect because that would dampen the whole thing will really ruin the whole thing. And so I learned that this is my journey, you know, for this to be anything, it has to be something that I personally enjoy. And then we'll see.

Tammy Heermann: Yes, I'm an author but I'm not a writer. I wouldn't, I don't get up and love and write and love to write. They who are writers would say is just get it out, start writing. Don't edit yourself. Don't like just go with with the flow. That's exactly what what they say to do. And the most prolific famous authors, they have editors like that's their job. Like no one writes something perfectly and it's ready to go. You get your brain on paper and then there's other experts who help shape it. That's their job, right? That's their expertise. So you're doing exactly the right thing and just get it out.

Stephen Matini: Have you always known that at some point you would've written a book?

Tammy Heermann: No, definitely. It was never a goal of mine. You know, I grew up in a, a rural part of Canada. I wasn't that kid who said I always wanna do this or be this and I experimented with a lot of things. I wanted to do something creative, hairdressing, makeup, fashion. And then I was playing working in a bank and a teacher. And as you know a lot of kids do. Now that I reflect back is I love learning, I love new, I love change. Like literally I love throwing myself as we were talking about in the middle of a random country or area and just going, okay, let's figure this out. So I think I was kind of destined to work in terms of helping others learn and accept change and growth. And I'd say some pivotal moments. The first time I had been to Italy and it was in grade 12 and high school, my senior year of high school.

Tammy Heermann: And I remembered not just being blown away with being in Europe but with just seeing that there was this vast world, it opened my eyes cuz you know, so many people don't leave their areas and I come from a very large family and very few people have kind of left the area and I was just in intrigued by this wide, wide world. And so that was certainly an event. And then later on in graduate school, again I returned to the UK and and did my graduate studies and I was just surrounded by people from all over the world learning. When I think about what shaped me and when I was destined, it's like how do I help other people love learning and growth and change and do that with a global lens.

Stephen Matini: When you say learning and learning, curiosity, those are words that resonate very, very strongly with me. And so I would say that's my personal mindset. And hearing you, it seems to be your case as well. You talked about before the importance of mindset. When you say mindset, do you mean a specific mindset or the mindset changes from person to person?

Tammy Heermann: So I think it changes. So, so here's how I think about it and it even goes before mindset. And this is, you know, well documented with psychologists. And so our values and our beliefs, those things that we're kind of indoctrinated with shape our mindsets kind of how we walk into situations and then it shapes the behaviors that we engage in. And then of course that reinforces the values. You know, beliefs, mindsets, there's this cycle and sometimes that cycle helps us and sometimes it doesn't. So I grew up in this family very hardworking with a, you know, the strong work ethic of a farmer and that is fantastic. Like who would say that's a bad thing? And and I remember hearing my dad say, okay, you know, if you're gonna do something, do it once and do it right. And I remember him spending hours on things and perfecting it and it sounds great, doesn't it?

Tammy Heermann: And you probably know where this is going until I get into this office environment and you're leading these huge teams and you have 80 projects happening simultaneously, . And you can't do that. You can't have that mindset of touch, everything, make it perfect, touch it once, you know, do the the best you can on everything. You just can't. And I remember a critical moment where my boss at the time took me and he said, Tammy, he said, you can't keep going like this. You can't do everything perfect. You have to understand when good is good enough. And he said, by the way, your good is most people's excellent. So he, he taught me that I really had to learn discernment when to kind of give a hundred percent, when to give 110 and when to give 60 because it's so in that, in that moment.

Tammy Heermann: And so that gets back to, you know, my values and beliefs kind of shaped this hardworking ethic which got me very far in life. But that mindset of always doing it perfect, I had to say, okay, when does that serve me and when does it not? And how do I adjust those behaviors? So that's kind of the loop. And I think what most training and development and leadership and learning does today is we put people in a classroom and we give them these skills training and we check the box and we think it's all good. Meanwhile people are sitting there going, I'd never do that, I'd never do it like that. I could never do that. And all these stories are going around in their brains and they leave the classroom and they check the box cuz they did the training. They'll do nothing different with it. And, and so for me the approach is always we have to start with the mindset first.

Stephen Matini: It seems that discernment is the recipe to defeat perfectionism.

Tammy Heermann: I think so, yeah. And of course perfectionism comes in various flavors. There's people who you know, again will just give a hundred percent and over invest when it's not required. There's people who won't start something and unless they can do it perfectly. So sometimes I tease my husband, he's like, well I'm not doing this workout cuz if I can't get in, you know, my warmup, the actual workout and then the cool down, then it's not worth it cuz I don't have two hours to do this. Versus any health expert would tell you 20 minutes a day is better than not doing it at all. But to get the, you know, so that that notion of if I can't do it perfectly, I won't do it at all. So again, discernment comes in, in all these places is how do I calculate where do I spend my time? What's the payoff, what's the value to me and others? Absolutely.

Stephen Matini: How did you develop your discernment? Because as I think of this word, it makes total sense and as I stay with the word, I think in order for me to discern, I will need to be more mindful. I need to take a step back to maybe to have a better analytical skill. So for you, how did you develop that so you knew how far to push yourself? 60%, 80% or whatever there was.

Tammy Heermann: The first thing is to understand what's the vision for yourself. And so that's what I do with all leaders, especially women. What's the impact I wanna have? What's the legacy I wanna leave? What does my best self look like? And that's different than setting goals cuz every organization will say, oh, set your goals for the year, right? And this is the higher level than that.

And then once I have that criteria and I have sure my organization makes me have some development goals, then I can sit in that situation and exactly to your point and say, okay, is that helping me get closer to these things or is it distracting and taking me farther apart? And I think most people know the answer to that question, Stephen. I think they're too scared to have the conversation that says, I don't think I should be doing this. That's the thing they, they know they shouldn't be. They know they don't want to be. It's the conversation I think that scares most people.

Stephen Matini: I think you said that your soft spot is to work with people, leadership potential that is on the cusp of making the big jump, right? A lot of women. What are some of the biases, conscious or unconscious that you have seen more frequently working with people?

Tammy Heermann: Yeah, well there is with that group, and I'll tell you why I love it so much, is because it's usually an age and stage conversation. Meaning if they're just on the cusp of whether it's like director or you know, beginning of executive or partner in a firm, whatever the structure is, they're usually at that age where they're either starting to have a family, you know, got little ones at home or maybe decide not to or cannot. And so they're in this really sticky stage of life where there is added pressure, I mean really, really added pressure, especially if you've got little ones at home or you're, you know, getting pregnant in between you're trying to get promoted, all of that.

And what also happens simultaneously is a lot of organizations aren't supportive of that. A lot of countries don't have a lot of support for families and they start to question, am I good enough? Can I really do this? Does it make sense? And it's really hard to just get beyond the hours of day-to-day and kind of look out into the long-term. It's this time where they just, they need a big,   and then say, okay, what are you gonna do about this? And so I just love working with this stage because they're on the cusp of greatness in their career these moments. But it can go downhill very fast because they're, they're just questioning everything.

Stephen Matini: When you say that, you mean both regardless of gender or do you see them more prominent in certain type of people?

Tammy Heermann: Definitely more prominent with females and that's where I spend a lot of my time working now with women because you know, for the most part women still do have primary caretaking responsibilities in the home. And then I'd say more generally, cuz you asked, and again I've worked with a lot of high potentials, it's that shift between moving from tactical to strategic. It's how do I get known for not doing everything but to kind of seeing the more strategic picture and leading. And there's that moment where it's so hard you have to work so hard to both build your team and gain your own visibility so that you can let go and kind of move into that more strategic realm. That is a tough, tough jump for anyone. And again, if you layer on kind of the age and stage with women, that tends to be right in the childbearing years.

Stephen Matini: Working with women, what has been in your experience as some of the most effective ways for new female leaders to legitimize their position in a company, to be seen a more as a strategic contributor, better than being a doer?

Tammy Heermann: Yeah, and and gosh, the word, so I'm, I'm triggered by the word when you said legitimize because I'm like, oh they shouldn't have to, and yet you're onto something Stephen. So in my research what I found is when I looked at 360 research, women tend to score higher on most leadership competencies except for one.

And it's that strategic, they are perceived, so to your legitimize, I talk about changing perceptions of our strategic capability. So it's not that I don't think women don't have those skills or can't have those skills, it's that we get so mired in the execution and doing and not carving the boundaries and checking off the to-do list at home and at work and we just get stuck and there's a pride in execution, give it to me, I'll get it done. There's the multitasking that that women are, you know, so great at.

Tammy Heermann: All of these things keep us stuck in the weeds. For me it's about helping them understand, okay, how do you change perceptions of this skillset I know you have and get out of that kind of doing trap and, and more into that strategic realm. And it's how you communicate, it's how you say yes and no to things. It's how you, you know, where you spend your time, how you kind of beef up your team so you can kind of get up into the higher level. It's, it's a whole bunch of things but I'll tell you, when I started working on all of that stuff Stephen, I was promoted four times in six years when I made the deliberate decision to say I gotta get out of the weeds.

Stephen Matini: So which one was the first skill that you started doing differently? Were you more assertive? Was communication, what was it?

Tammy Heermann: I think I wrote this in the book and I had done my own 360 and that's what I had gotten back is my feedback as well. That's what made me curious to kind of look into it. The coach I was working with said, I want you to start by asking different questions and meetings.

And I laughed. I said, how can something so simple like are you kidding me ? And of course all these things are little simple steps that you have to put into place. And so I started by showing up differently by asking strategic questions. So first of all, I'm getting my voice in the room to your point, but second I was showing my strategic capabilities. So for example, rather than just saying why don't we do this or why aren't we doing this? I said something like, given what we know about the environment and our current customers, you know, if they're asking about new solutions in this new place, how about we look at this solution and its impact on X, Y, and Z?

Tammy Heermann: So all of a sudden now they're seeing, oh my gosh, she's thinking about environment, she's taking trends into account, she knows our customers and she's proposing a solution, but understanding that it's gonna have various impacts. That's a very strategic question that shows how my brain works. And I remember the first time I did it, the room just looked at me and stared, there was like silence for a few seconds and I was so uncomfortable. And I think it's because they're like, well A, she's talking and B wow, that was very astute of her right? And guess what I was asked back to the next meeting and the next meeting. And so that's where I started was just showing people I had that capability and bringing my voice into the conversations.

Stephen Matini: I love that. When I said the word legitimate is a word that comes out a lot, particularly with professionals that belong to specific functions. You know, if you're in finance, it's if you're in sales, that's something, you know, if you are into marketing much, much harder to prove that the budget that you are asking is going to produce those results. You know, if you're in human resources. So I think there are some functions that sometimes seem to struggle a little bit more to have that to be seen, you know, as strategic partner, you know, HR being a, a typical thing. I love what you said about asking questions and I was thinking probably feeling comfortable with silence to stay there, to be silent and to listen and to make people feel their presence. When people have to learn how to be more assertive. If I don't say no, then I'm going to continue being this busy, be in operational doing a million things. But if I start saying no to things, how am I going to be perceived? Will I be perceived as someone who doesn't collaborate? You know, am I going to upset someone? What would you suggest to someone that wants to say no, that wants to set boundaries but still struggles with them?

Tammy Heermann: Yeah, absolutely. And I agree it, I think so many people struggle with this. So a couple things going through my mind is first of all we can't just say no. We have to talk about, you know, what it is that that we're saying yes to. And so most people will just say, I'm too busy. I can't take that on my plate, cell overflowing, whatever analogy you use. And that's more of a help me prioritize sometimes even a mental health conversation around overwhelm versus saying, here's what I'm on the hook for with my boss for example. Here's what you're, you know, evaluating me on, here's the new thing that have come. Here's where I plan to spend my time to accomplish X, y and Z. Here's what's coming in. And really think about it as influencing and negotiation to say this isn't possible and, and if you're telling me I can't work, we'll then know that, you know, what are the implications of that Quality's gonna slip here.

Tammy Heermann: This person's on the verge of quitting, da da da da da da. So we have to make these conversations a business conversation. I was also very appointed when I said at that time, you're telling me that I need to be more strategic and then be seen as a, as a broader leader. So expect that I'm going to have these conversations with you. I'm gonna come to you from time to time and I'm gonna say no, I need you to hear me. And then we need to talk it out. And I know I'm not gonna win every time, but I also know that if I lose every time there's gonna be an impact to that. These are the things that I had to dial up to make it known. I, I think we have all these conversations inside our brains and we get so overwhelmed and we don't have them outward with other people and then they just explode as an overwhelmed conversation.

Tammy Heermann: And then the other thing I think we, we go back to kind of having that vision for yourself is, is so for me if at one point I was the global practice leader for women in leadership, so that's a big role and part of my vision for it was that I wanted to be a role model because how could I go out and tell women carved boundaries, but I'm not carving them myself. I'm not trying to say no myself. Like I couldn't do that. I couldn't be a hypocrite. And so I would state that, I would say part of my role is to be a role model and lead the way. So I'm not gonna jump on a plane tomorrow to go there. I will come over by Zoom because it's important for me to da da da da da. And so I think part of it is goes back to that you know, what's the vision for ourselves and how do we have a business conversation.

Stephen Matini: Do you have a sense of where this leadership development is going to? Do you have a sense of patterns or what may be relevant in five years or even longer than that?

Tammy Heermann: So not really. It's so funny because when I did work in a big consulting firm and we'd talk about this and most people would equate, you know, innovation or or advancement and it's always technology driven. That's great. But really like does anyone even do the self-paced learning anymore? Like it's been relegated to the closet where people have to do their compliance training every year in organizations or their health and safety. Like that's where that's ended up. It's good for that. And that's it. For me, it always comes back to instead of getting more distributed, how do we get more human and more together and intense? And so I am seeing a lot more organizations invest in coaching thankfully. And I think a lot of the big firms have kind of tried to democratize coaching through different platforms, but we'll still having, you know, a human on the other end.

Tammy Heermann: So, you know, I guess that's kind of good. And I have seen organizations say, okay, we do realize that being in person together, creating community, like I joke I say like it is not a good workshop of mine unless someone cries because, cause we know that we've hit something really important to them and the room and you just, you can't do that in other ways. So I think it's a long way of saying, you know, I don't know where the industry is headed, but I hope it's less to how do we use technology , you know, and more about how do we start talking about the things that make us human because of the last few years have brought anything to us. It's, it's, we know that we can't separate work and home and that what drives us at work is the very human things that drive us anywhere. And so really understanding that I think is important and, and I think we'll continue on the diversity, inclusion and equity and belonging and, and the name keeps getting longer and longer, which is good. I am seeing a lot more organizations realize that that's something that they have to pay attention to. So that's good.

Stephen Matini: Funny that we have to remind ourselves of the basic way of being a human . We spend so much time anything else, you know, we talking about conversations, being a person, treat people like a person, you know, which you would think, you know, that should come pretty easy to us, you know, but we have to constantly remind ourselves to do the things that make us deliciously human, you know?

Tammy Heermann: Just think back to, you know, when work started coming in all the office jobs, I mean, what was it? It was you typically the man left the home and it was a very separate, like we learned, even I was told to separate and I'm not that old to separate myself, to not bring my home crap into the office. I was told that. And so we were conditioned to separate ourselves to be, you know, one person here and another person there. And we just know thankfully that that just doesn't work.

Stephen Matini: It does not. One thing that I read that you use, but we didn't talk about it before. You use mantras. I love that. So I don't use mantras, but I use mindfulness, you know, in my trainings and the way that I introduce is always okay, can we breathe? And then people usually are open to it, you know, most people are open to it, but it's a bit odd, you know, so I have to be careful how I introduce it. How do you bring such an important piece, you know, to a training, to anything, to any learning experience?

Tammy Heermann: It took me a long time to really accept the word even mantra cuz to your part, and I don't care what people call it, whether it's a talk track or a phrase or a slogan for themselves, whatever. What I want them to think about is, what is the word or phrase usually pretty short that you can repeat over and over to stalk or reverse that cycle I talked about, you know, when we get into those situations where we start saying really horrible things to ourselves and so we create them and you can have as many as you need for whatever situation. But the, you know, ones that I talk about as an example is I remember speaking on a stage and too was a couple thousand people and there were really famous people speaking, like everyone knew who those four people were. And then there was me, it's like, who's that?

Tammy Heermann: You know, who's that person? So of course I'm standing backstage and I'm like telling myself all like, what am I doing here? No one's gonna listen to me. And then I brought out my mantra, you belong here, you belong here, you belong here. Because what did anyone else on stage know about my topic? Like either nothing or very little. I don't know anything about their topic. Why would they know anything about my topic? Right? . And so you belong here, you belong here, you have an important message and it just kind of buoys you and stops that horrible voice in your head. And so that's my example. So it's amazing. I've had women who post them on the screen or I'm actually hearing a lot more about this. So in Michelle Obama's recent book, the Light We Carry and I just saw an interview on TV this week with Mary J. Blige and both of them talked about in the mornings, you know, when conventionally you kind of look your worst, you're just outta bed looking in the mirror and saying, hello, gorgeous, or hello beautiful or whatever it is because it helps rewire our brain because what do we do?

Tammy Heermann: We go in and we go, oh my God, I look, I didn't get any sleep, those bags or wrinkles or blah blah, my hair's a desire. It's like, hello, gorgeous. And I love that. So that's a, a mantra again to rewire our brain to see the beauty within and the strength and, and that's why I think it's so powerful.

Stephen Matini: When you teach people how to use mantra, you let them pick the word or are there words that you suggest to them? How does it work?

Tammy Heermann: No, it has to come from them. It has to, if I tell them to say something and it might not mean anything to them and it'll be very unique to their situation. So for some it's yes, when I'm in that meeting with that person who just, no, you, we all know that that person, right? Okay, how do I walk in? What do I need to say to myself in those moments where I know they're gonna say something that riles me up? That could be one situation. Another is before I give a presentation or before I do this or that. And so it is for them very specific for their context.

Stephen Matini: Which one was more stressful to you release your baby, your book to the world, or given a presentation to you know, 2000 people knowing that other famous speakers, which one was more nerve wracking?

Tammy Heermann: Oh, a hundred percent. The book, I've done a lot of kind of being on stage my whole life. I used to remember I'd played the saxophone at the concert or the organ in church or whatever. So I've always enjoyed being in front of an audience, so that's fine. But once you release that book into the world and there's no taking it back, at least those other things, it ends, it ends in 30 minutes, 60 minutes, whatever it's done with putting your thoughts. And I think for most people they're really personal stories in there. It's very vulnerable.

Stephen Matini: When you have really difficult time for whatever the reason and you find yourself in an odd spot. Is there anything that you normally do to get out of it or it depends. What do you do?

Tammy Heermann: Oh God. And this is so hard, isn't it? And I have a teenage daughter, so of course there's lots of times where you're just like, oh my God, I don't dunno what to do. Yeah, I'd say there's kinda three steps. So one is I remind myself that it's a point in time because of course we've all gone through difficult things many times and we will continue to. So if my first is deep breath, this is the point in time, this is a point in time, I will get through it. So I think that's one thing. The next is kind of perspective taking. So whether it involves another person or myself is like how do I either put in perspective what I'm thinking or I think they're where they're coming from. So I try to do perspective taking. And then the third, I call it learn and let go. But I think your tagline for your podcast is pause, learn, and move on. So that's exactly it. The the third is like, okay, what am I learning? And let go learn, let go, learn, let go.

Stephen Matini: One of mine, one of the many, it is pity party over. I mean, it has become some sort of personal mantra. When I am stuck in the place, there's always a moment that that comes in my mind, you know, like, okay, enough is enough pity party over, you cannot stay here forever. There's just, it's unproductive. It's, it's boring. It's pointless. So one question that like to ask at the end of our chitchat is this one we talked about different things, but there had to be something, some sort of takeaway that you would like listeners to focus on based on anything that we said. What would you highlight?

Tammy Heermann: We know the importance of stories, right? They, they're literally everywhere and they're the main way we communicate in the world, but we don't pay attention to the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And for me, that is the most important thing to pay attention to. And so many studies have shown, you know, self-compassion and, and what we say to ourselves is the biggest tip for relieving stress, for building resilience. It really is, right? That, that piece. And so I would say for, for anyone who hasn't kind of done that type of reflection before that, it's, it's life changing in the world of sports and performance, they've known that forever. They know their head game is what actually makes them win, not their physical performance. And yet why do we not think that all the rest of us and in our offices and homes and wherever we work. So yeah, I'd say the, the stories we tell ourselves are critical.

Stephen Matini: Is this something that you learned as a musician?

Tammy Heermann: No, I've always kind of played with this notion of, of mindset early days in working in training and development and leadership. But where it really struck me is I was watching a marathon and where I live, I'm right at the turnaround point for the runners. And so I get to see the runners twice because they go by me and then they turn around and they come back. And so I always, I watch it and in the paper I remember seeing an interview the next day with the winner of the marathon. And when they said, you know, how do you do that to the winner? Like, he was like, just over two hours I think was his, his race. And he said, it's easy. He said, I only have to run for two hours and whatever. He said, I don't know how those other runners do it that are there for four hours, six hours, eight hours.

Tammy Heermann: He goes, how did they do it? And I thought, wow, what an interesting mindset shift. And it just, it blew my head because we're all so in awe of him and he is like, we run for two hours. That's it. That really got me seeing the parallels between this whole world of sports and performing arts. Like they get it, they get it led to performance coaches and thankfully psychologists being put with all of these high performing people. Why do we think we're any different? That was kinda when it really hit me that we can borrow from this world that really understands the nature of mindset.

Stephen Matini: It's all about the story that we tell ourselves. True. Ms. Tammy, thank you so much for these important insights. That was really a lovely conversation. I've learned a lot from you today.

Tammy Heermann: Thank you. I've enjoyed it so much too. Stephen.