Dr. Claudia Gross is a German consultant and trainer who lives in Cairo, Egypt, and has a soulful humanist approach to business.
Our conversation revolves around the transformative potential of language in fostering positive connections, understanding, and personal growth. Inspired by approaches such as Nonviolent Communication and Positive Psychology, Dr. Gross emphasizes the concept that words create worlds.
Dr. Gross is the author of the first Speak Green book, Words Create Worlds: Cultivating a Conscious, Life-Affirming Language. The idea is to move away from "red language," which is divisive and instead embrace "green language," which promotes harmony and positive communication.
By speaking green, we can move beyond binary thinking, embrace a variety of viewpoints with greater ease, and cultivate empathy through language.
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Managerial & Leadership Development
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TRANSCRIPT
Stephen Matini:Claudia. You are in Egypt. So how's life in Egypt?
Claudia Gross: Life in Egypt is also very different to what I was used to and I think about Germany, you know, like, so a totally different planet if you wanna say that. And I love it because it's so interesting and inspiring.
Being here, living in a totally different culture, being emerged and surrounded by it. Here there are so many opportunities to contribute. This is what I also love.
For me, Egypt's like a huge catalyst of my own development. Everything I currently am, who I am and what I do is based on this fertile soil of the desert country. So for me, living in Egypt has been a very fertile, inspiring and reconnecting experience, reconnecting myself to my roots.
Stephen Matini: Do you think that you would have become the same type of person if you never moved to Egypt?
Claudia Gross: I can't imagine. Just the other day I actually thought that I'm very grateful for this kind of destiny or force in the road that brought me here. I have been here since 18 and a half years. So if this period was a human being, it would be a teenager with a driving license.
And when I think about, for example, the power of language that I'm so passionate about, I see this here in in Egypt, an action every day. Even if you just say good morning, good morning in Arabic would be something like wishing you a morning full of light or full of honey, or full of yes. mean if you're responding to this, you would actually aim for saying something that is even sweeter or brighter. And I, I see this a lot.
There's also some things, some words we would not say, things we wouldn't say simply because that's part of the culture, and because we think that it brings bad luck. So being immersed into this kind of environment where the power of words can be felt and seen every day in every conversation definitely contributed to who I'm currently.
Stephen Matini: How have you discovered along the way, the power of language, the power or words, how did you get interested in words as much as you do today?
Claudia Gross: The initial moment that I can recall that changed everything was when I was sitting in the traffic jam in Egypt and like a particularly long one, really dramatic. And I was surrounded by signs telling me what not to do. So I got like, don't be late, don't miss this appointment. And signs on the streets saying, don't whatever cross here, don't turn here.
And I was like, Hey, listen, you know, I mean like, could you please stop talking in red language to me, if not helpful? What I would love to know is like, what can I now do? Where can I turn? Where could I go? And I mean, I could not just leave my car behind the walk. So this is what happened.
And when I then arrived at the place where I was having dinner with a friend at this time, I was like telling her this experience and suddenly it's like sketching down a couple of red words and green words and this is what happened. This is where it started.
And then retroactively, I realized that since I can think when I was highlighting texts and textbooks or when, when studying something, especially in English, I was always starting to highlight something when the not part was over and when it was focusing on what to do, suddenly I understood that I had it in me for a while, but it just woke up in this particular traffic jam.
Stephen Matini: Is this what you refer to as a speak green?
Claudia Gross: Yes. For me, speak green. Why have I chosen this? It's because really an opposition to red language in, in comparison to how people talk a lot. When you think about Marshall Rosenberg, the founder of non-violent communication, you would call it hyena language and giraffe language.
For me, what was like closer to my heart where these two languages and also like traffic signs, like read for, hey, wait a moment stand still pause, reflect, is this really how I wanna say it? And then coming up with the green alternative and to go for that. So also this complementary of these colors was important for me in that moment.
Stephen Matini: Claudia, I wanna ask you, I understand perfectly the concept. I was wondering, would you mind to provide an example of a sentence that uses red words and how to turn it into green words?
Claudia Gross: Oh yeah, certainly. The classic example is that for centuries we are focusing on “no war.” I've been in a Picasso museum where he was also referring to manifestations and demonstrations in the street, and they were all having this posters of no war, no war.
When I seen this in the black and white movie, I thought, like, so long we're going for in war, when actually what we really in the bottom of our hearts are desiring is peace.
So for me, no war is written in red and peace is written in green language. And that's also an example for moving beyond these negation and looking at what do we really want. Because our minds as we now move from neuroscience, cannot see something that is negated. It first has to evoke it like war or war and they're like, ah, no, no, that's not what I'm, that's too difficult. We better focus on what we wish for.
Stephen Matini: You told me about this last time when we met, you talked about the difference between a “yes” and “yes, but.” But would you mind explaining the difference between these two approaches?
Claudia Gross: Yes, certainly. For me it was one of these discoveries of higher communication, because the experience of “yes, but” something that we all share on a day-to-day basis that someone seems to agree yes and, but then feels like a slap into our face or a close door. We experienced this, but for a very long time I just thought like, well that's the way we say it. This is how we talk.
Until I was introduced in a workshop to the option of “yes, and”. And I goosebumps when I think about it because it's like, what this is adding a new idea. This is not pretending as if you're first agreeing and then contradicting.
And later then I learned that in improv theater they have a rule on stage that they will not say no or yes, but they will always say “and” so that the game or the the show continue.
Stephen Matini: In your experience working across different cultures, do you find it easier or simpler, this specific attention towards in one culture versus another or it doesn't matter?
Claudia Gross: I think it matters and I think that all cultures are, all languages have different preferences. So I'm already like a bit concerned when we're trying to translate my book because some things I think they're not translatable from English to any other language, be it German or French or Arabic, you know, they where, where I have an idea of what I'm talking about some in the different languages and this what I, that people around them and their examples might be very cultural specific. So some things might not be that we cannot generalize them or things that I could say in German, they actually do not work in another language or a word play that works in English. We can't translate it.
So we would rather put it in brackets or like adding whatever footnote to explain it. But in general, I think this sensitivity or the awareness for the power of language is available in all languages that are using prayer, that are using holy words that are not saying special words because they could bring bad luck.
So I think actually it would be, would be present all around the world. And I'm for example, not saying worldwide because I learned from Buckminster Fuller that this would be pretending that it is a flat earth and I believe it's globe. That's why I'm also speaking about around the world or globally, but not about something worldwide.
Stephen Matini: Have you ever heard, I'm sure you did, about the Sapir-Whorf theory or communication?
Claudia Gross: Yes.
Stephen Matini: I remember when I studied it the first time was the notion, you know, based on these colors that essentially the language that we speak, you know, color and tint anything the way we view the world. And I thought it was an incredible theory. The theory has been discussed, has been disproved in many different times. But still what's interesting when I try to learn a new language and I see the same text, I see the grammar. I always have the feeling that I'm putting on sunglasses, a language, the specific structure, really deeply condition how I relate to people.
Stephen Matini: Words these days seem to be weaponized. Even the whole controversy about freedom of speech. Oftentimes we see endless amount of examples of cancel culture because this person used the wrong word, maybe words that were said years prior in a completely different context. To me it looks like a big gigantic mess of polarized ideas. From your perspective, what could it be a first super small step that all of us as a global community could take in the right direction to build bridges through the use of words?
Claudia Gross: Open your ears, have elephant ears, and open your hearts so that you have a giraffe heart and then have a conversation.
And I also see this a lot what you're describing, that people are losing also friends or family members over discussions over one particular word. And that's a real pity because what we want to be cultivating our conversations, especially with those who are thinking and acting in a way that is totally different to ours.
So instead of like emptying my friends list of those who think differently than I do and are not agreeing to how I see the world, it's actually super important to reach out to them and to have the conversations and to widen our horizon, widen our perspective, and be more in this careers mode of like, wow, isn't that interesting?
And I believe for me, like when I, when I'm listening to all of these developments, I'm also very much inspired by the integral model by Ken Wilber. So I see this evolutionary development of human beings and I can, based on their language also see and hear where they're coming from.
And therefore I think it's also very important for us that yes, we are all the same and different. Yeah. So we have different backgrounds, different understanding of what's different connotations, so better and a peaceful environment of coexistence and curiosity, then losing those that would be perfect alley for us towards change in this world.
Stephen Matini: Two concepts, they're really important to you in terms of some of the positive impact of using a specific type of language. A green language has to do with you call it like a pluralism and gender positivity. These two components seem to be really important to you. Would you mind telling me more about these two?
Claudia Gross: When I think about pluralism, just very basically I am thinking really in plurals, very often people only give me one option and I'm interested in getting more. I wanna have a choice. And so therefore I believe it's really important to move beyond the binary, which then means like it's not zeroes or one, it's not yes or no. It's not only tea and coffee. And I believe this is important to express this also in language.
When I'm facilitating coaching, I give people at least three choices or more only with the intention of moving beyond the binary. And for me, when I then I think about gender, it's something similar. I mean, I, I'm German, I grew up with a language that actually has, that has three articles. I also take this one as one of the reasons why for me, pluralism and a variety is a lot easier to grasp, to understand, to connect to than for others. And having said this, being able to express ourselves in more than only one language also helps because depending on the language I speak, I'm a different person.
Stephen Matini: Freedom of speech is such an important thing. And when people tell me what to say and not to say I feel that I get silenced. How would you respond to this type of criticism.
Claudia Gross: There were already situations where people ask me exactly about these points, you know, where they were like, are you now trying to police us? And I thought like, well, it's so far away from my personality to police anyone in anything.
And for me, this is also where I then thought about and I thought what I really do is highlighting language that is not anymore in harmony with our consciousness and offering alternatives.
And when I started this, green was just like the language that came up and red as well. There were also moments where then thought like, oh goodness, you know, now you're creating polarities and it looks like green is good and red is bad. And that's also how I mean it, but I do not mean it like with this erect index finger teacher, teacher telling us, you know, how to speak now, that's not my intention. My intention is not to program anyone with my language. I'm, I'm not trained in NLP, even. So my, my origins of this whole initiative really come from a totally different direction.
And therefore what I do is I offer for everyone who's really stuck in my perspective, like someone who's, who's like extremely fluent in red language.
Very often these people cannot imagine green language because no one in their surroundings speaks green language. So what I actually do is, in my perspective, I am increasing the horizon. I'm doubling the space of, of vocabulary and life ultimately, and I'm making offerings and they can choose them, yes or no, totally up to them. And it's possible that what I offer this today, next year I might offer you something else because I have my language also has evolved.
And the way I see it currently is really like a yin and y sign. So as if it was a red young that needs a green yin as yeah to be complete, to also add different energy to that. And only when these two are coming together you have the circle, then you can strive for oneness.
But as long as you are like in this kind of whatever ocean of red language, moving on and understanding what else is possible is too far away. So this is what I'm now currently answering and I, I've seen it in so many people when they realize how they could not even see it.
Just the other day, we are now preparing a conference in a panel, in an event in the UK and one of the aspects of this whole event is about strengthening business and the outdoor. So I was listening to the conversation, I was like, oh, that's interesting outdoor, say this again, out-door and in-door. You don't even mention the, which is really interesting. So it's defined by the door, look at it in front of your door or inside of your door. But I mean this does not necessarily need to be nature at all.
So these little things, you know, and then, oh yeah, interesting. So one word can be so powerful and its could be then reframed, reformulated in something that is more life giving. Here we’re, the journey continues.
Stephen Matini: Yeah. Because a door is something that separates, kinda the example you gave before, no war and peace, you know, outdoors and nature. Absolutely. I'm thinking that maybe this oneness that we so much all want, peace actually it is not oneness, but it's fragmented in infinite variations.
Claudia Gross: Every country you travel through with every culture, even in your country you visit, there's so much variation. They do things differently. And being aware of that is being rich.
And I believe that's also something that is related to speak because what we do is we're increasing the circles around us. It's not only about myself and my family and my neighbors and my working place, which is already a couple of circles, but the moment I'm able to embrace more people and at a certain point reach like be it my country, be it the region we are in, be it like the rules low, suddenly it's a totally different perspective.
And this means also that if I'm then whatever, separating and segregating the waste in my house, I don't do this for myself anymore. I do not do this for the garbage man anymore, or the garbage person, or whatever is a better word here, they are called ‘zabaleen’, you would do it for the planet for the seventh generation of grandchildren.
So I believe what happens with these experiences in different countries, realizing exactly as you said, opposite, 180 degrees different from we were used to. In Germany, we would not marry our cousins here in Egypt, people do that. It's the extreme opposite and it's for the respective cultures, it's the way people are living.
And I believe being able to hold the seemingly opposite in our mind at the same time. And at the beginning it's only two and then after a while it's even more because then you see how they, they're done in different cultures.
I believe like we're really growing new connections on our brain group, becoming more compassionate for others. And it's a lot easier then to support others in seeing it, having these conversations and those who can't travel, who don't travel, who do not, don't ever have the chance make these experiences, but by sharing our stories, they come close to them. Really they do this.
I mean, I'm vegetarian and I'm drinking everything, tea and coffee without sugar even this is already a pattern disruptor. Really? Does it have taste? Can you do that? But that's, no one does this, you know? I'm like, well, I mean at least I do it and I can assure you, you know, it's better than four spoons of sugar in your tea. And I think it's first about the past pattern structure and then integrating it all into ourselves and being aware of there might be no single truth.
Stephen Matini: I keep thinking as you are describing such important concept, it's a big exercise in empathy, understanding that the world is not you and it works differently than you. And you can still enjoy anything that is not you if you make an effort to get out of your shoes and know for a while basically.
Claudia Gross: And you see the word empathy just crossed my path yesterday when we spoke about equality and equity where I've seen a title and I, sorry, that I don't recall in which workshop this was, but there they also spoke about diversity and equality and inclusion and belonging. And they didn't say equality or equity, they said empathy.
And I thought like, how cool is this? Because it's not anymore about people with each other, it's about having empathy with each other, really meeting human to human. And I think this is also another evolutionary step in language on our behaviors that at a certain point it's not anymore about doing things because it has to be equal. We'll do them because we have like hundred percent empathy with other people.
And equality at the end of the day is also not the goal, we're striving for justice and for fairness, which means that it can be unequal, but it's just, and it's fair. So you know, I mean these concepts, they're really sometimes mind blowing, but I can see them on a spectrum of evolutionary development of humankind and human beings themselves. Like being more and more able to embrace this kind of complexity.
Stephen Matini: I have a funky question. I love languages, you know, and I wish I had all the time in the world to learn every single language. They're just wonderful. But you know how difficult it is, you know, it takes time. Do you think that if we had one true common language, all of us spoke the same language while retaining all the other languages, but if all of us, you know, terrestrians spoke at least in one same language, do you think would be easier?
Claudia Gross: While listening to your question, I thought about Esperanto they trying to to create an artificial language that we all could speak. I love that you added that all the other languages would continue because I would, this would be my major concern that we give up this world that we have when we are speaking exactly the same language.
We're under the illusion that the others understand us because then they're fluent in our language, especially with mother tongue and we, when you're traveling, we feel like an immediate connection to those that are speaking our language. But on the other hand, this can also be a huge illusion.
When I'm speaking with people, what we do now on this English bridge, which is not my mother tongue, I would make more effort to make sure that I am really understood or I would also ask more questions, especially in very personal relationships.
So therefore I believe not speaking the same language could increase our understanding because it supports us also in understanding ourselves and the other and the space between us. And very often I feel very understood by people who are not speaking my mother tongue and absolutely not understood by people who speak German.
Stephen Matini: I love when you say illusion, it really is an illusion. Is there anything out of anything we said that you think that our listeners, the people that will listen to this episode, will be important to pay attention to based on your experience of the power of words?
Claudia Gross: Yeah, that's a good question. First of all, I think what we all need to be aware of now more than ever, independent of words, but I think it's really important to highlight this, is that we are experiencing a change of era. So one era is ending and the other one is beginning and they're overlapping.
So we’re currently in a phase where both developments are overlapping. Yes, we’re hospicing the old and they’re midwifing the new, both at the same time. This means that we have a huge marketplace and spectrum variety for what we are also experiencing now regarding language is I do not think that there's the right language, and I wouldn't go for right and wrong. When I think about red and green, for me it's really about what is limiting and destructing or inhibiting life and what is giving life and supporting whatever self-development and so on.
So this is how I would see it, and therefore I would always only make offerings. That's one of the rare situations where the word always actually work. Because normally I'm saying don't say always, don't say never. So I'm contradicting myself. But what I wanna say is that it's about offerings, it's about adding a perspective and also inviting others.
See this as well. When I'm working, when people speak in a lot of negative language where I'm like, okay, how would we reframe that? You know, how does that sound without the not? That's an invitation and they can draw this path. And if they're absolutely not able to lose, I can see if I can assist them. And if it still doesn't work, we can see how we then continue with each other. You know, what is needed. I would never, ever impose it on them.
And this is the thing that I would like people to take with them, you know, like experiment with it, be inspired by it. See how powerful it is, and it's also not just the, the word itself, it's also the vibration it brings in. Yeah.
For the book I had recorded word showers, like hundred red words and hundred green words. And just listening, just recording the red words was unpleasant, you know, while the green words had a totally different aura and frequency.
So therefore be curious, be aware of your own language. Do not believe everything you think. Be an author for your own lives, co-author our future. So that's the spirit which everyone to approach this field of language and contribute to it. If there are words that are not in harmony anymore with how you see it or would love to say it, come up with a greener alternative.
Stephen Matini: Claudia this was fantastic. Thank you so much for these important insights, for spending time with me. Thank you.
Claudia Gross: With utmost pleasure.
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