Ditch Your Ditties - Say Yes to What Matters & No to the Rest - Featuring Molly McGuigan
Are you tired of feeling burdened by responsibilities that aren’t yours?
The guest on the podcast Pity Party Over is Molly McGuigan, a Positive Change Practitioner and Appreciative Inquiry Expert.
Molly discusses the project she co-founded called “Ditch the Ditty,” which aims to help women overcome unnecessary responsibilities and obligations.
Ditch the Ditty explores ways to raise awareness of when women can say yes or no to things and the importance of valuing oneself.
Join us on Pity Party Over and discover how to release yourself from the weight of responsibilities that don't serve you.
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Managerial & Leadership Development
#conflict #assertiveness #boundaries #mollymcguigan #ditchtheditty #positivepsychology #appreciativeinquiry #podcast #pitypartyover #stephenmatini #alygn
TRANSCRIPT
Stephen Matini: When did you find out about human development that was gonna be your focus of interest?
Molly McGuigan: I, you know, I don't know that there was a moment. I feel like it's been a journey and that journey began really when I graduated from college. I went to school in Cleveland as well. I went to John Carroll University, and then after college, I, I worked for a company that did experiential training and development, and I sort of fell into that.
I was working at a summer camp for kids with diabetes and I got interested in doing work on the Ropes Challenge course. So sort of the out, you know, the out Outward Bound type work that where you have kids that are going up and, you know, learning about climbing and, you know, high, high-end trees and, and teaching them about leadership, about overcoming challenges and things like that. And so I got really interested in that, probably more so from even the outdoor education and working, you know, working with kids aspect of it.
Molly McGuigan: I didn't really think a whole lot about how that impacted human development or organization development at that time. A company that I started working for right after that, that put the, the challenge courses in and did all the training for the challenge courses for the camp, I started working for them right outta college and wow, it just opened my eyes to this whole world of human development organization development teams.
And I quickly got very interested in, in just how all of that worked, gave me the chance to to start to travel. And we started working in bigger organizations like Ernst & Young and, and things like that. And that took us all over the place. And so it was really interesting to meet people from not all, all over the country, but all over the world. And so I became, you know, became intrigued with that and that's where the journey began, and it continued for, for decades after that.
Stephen Matini: And then the whole positive psychology approach, how that one came about in your life?
Molly McGuigan: So I was working for that company Executive Edge, and we, because we were based in Cleveland, we, we had a connection to Case Western Reserve University, and we decided to take a program on appreciative inquiry.
And so it really just, we, we knew actually about appreciative inquiry and about the work of David Cooperrider because we had been doing work with his sister Don Dole in the experiential world. She was actually one of the facilitators for some of the work that we were doing with Executive Edge and decided to, to take a, take a workshop. So three of us went from that organization and took a foundation's workshop with David Cooperrider. And that's where I first learned about appreciative inquiry.
And again, just sort of another part, another milestone in the trajectory of my work was learning about how organizations can use this powerful methodology to, to plan to, to embrace change, to engage people. And it was just such a, an interesting and, and different way of approaching that work. And so I, we quickly started to implement that and use that within the, the work that we were doing with clients.
Stephen Matini: When I work with clients, I noticed that their traditional mindset is very much problem solving. Assess the situation, come up with the strategy, and then different actions, and appreciative inquiry focuses on strength. So it's a really different approach. When you deal with the client that never dealt with appreciative inquiry before, is there a specific way you would like to introduce it?
Molly McGuigan: I usually talk about a couple of things. I talk about, first of all how I think based on the premise that in every organization something is working, it's important to not throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. You know, we talk about that concept of really allowing some of what has worked well to come along, even as you're planning and thinking about the future.
It's very different from organ how organizations orient, especially when they're thinking about change or coming up with solutions to big challenges. You know, they don't necessarily think about it that way. We're, we're really wired to think more deficit minded. And so I, you know, quickly sort of orient them and help them understand how different that is. I think the other thing is that for me, all about bringing the right people to the table.
And again, another way that organizations often embrace change or, you know, some sort of a complex challenge is that they get a group of experts together or a group of leaders, and they're quickly moving in the direction of, of something that is really sort of facilitated by that smaller group of, of people.
But you leave so much out, you leave a lot of experience, a lot of knowledge, a lot of expertise out of the conversation, and you also lose the opportunity to bring people along with you to into that moment, into that moment of change, into that next phase of work, whatever that is.
Even if you feel like you have all the answers, which you probably don't , it's so important to allow people to sort of step into that space, to, you know, to really be engaged with that and feel like they are part of, of whatever it is that's gonna come next.
Stephen Matini: Why do you think that so often leadership seems to be not fully aware of the strengths and the people and the resources that already has, and so feels compelled to go outside to the expert, to the consultant that magically he's going to provide you with the perfect formula.
Molly McGuigan: I always, I love it when, when organizations don't feel that way and when they're like, we know we, we have all the answers, , and the answers lie with from within, but it doesn't often happen. You know, most, a lot of times they are sort of looking for that. I think, I think it's cuz they're looking for that sort of quick fix.
They think that there's this magic bullet out there, right, that's gonna change and be new and different. And the reality is there's really not that much that's new and truly innovative in the world, especially in the world of organization development and leadership development and things like that. There's really nothing that's really, you know, different. It's more of a, a reframe or a repackaging of things that we've known all along. But they are looking for something that brings some, some new thinking in, into the equation.
And they don't necessarily, it's not that they don't value their people or that they don't think that they have strengths. I think that they assume that they don't have something new because they are, you know, they're in the system. They're sort of married into that whole to how things are being done and they don't have that new provocative thing to, to think about.
I mean, I I love to think about the fact that, you know, sort of take this combination of people. It's not that one idea, it's the idea that's connected to another idea that's connected to another idea that does spark something new and innovative and something that they haven't really thought about before.
Stephen Matini: Why would you say that has been one of the biggest lessons that you learned from change?
Molly McGuigan: I think the, the biggest thing, and I continue to remind myself of this, is that, you know, the organizations are, as I think David Cooperrider said early on, you know, they're systems of human relatedness. It's all about relationship. The sooner we've sort of realized that it's really about the humans, it's about the human side of, of how people are interacting with each other, how people are relating to people.
And you know, every, every organization sort of has its own unique way of approaching that in the way of culture and how culture comes about. And and maybe in the way that they actually work together and things like that. But really at the end of the day, understanding what is important to people and what drives them and what makes them connected to each other.
And, you know, so much of the work that I do ends up being about that. It does end up being about, you know, sort of a, maybe a process around something, you know, that's new or different and bringing people together and sort of dec and, and deciphering around some of the politics and things like that. But at the end of the day, it's really about sort of lifting up and figuring out what is it that's most important to people and what are they gonna be energized by and excited about.
Stephen Matini: When you deal with the culture, an organizational culture that is very extremely task oriented and somehow the human component doesn't have that much space, how would you approach that?
Molly McGuigan: But it always sort of comes up in projects, you know, what do we do with the, with the naysayers? What do we do with the people that are, you know, are, are not there, are not ready to sort of share. And I, you know, kind of tie that together with what your example was of, you know, well we don't wanna hear from them, you know, and those, those folks probably do have, have something to say, but that, but we don't, you know, we don't need to necessarily bring that into the equation.
But I think that people tend to sort of hold on to what has been done in the past, feel very wedded to that, you know, very tied into that. And sometimes it, it is hard to, to sort of give people the space if you're especially talking about sort of a new process or new initiative, it's sometimes hard to give people the space to air things out or to work out the conflict that they have between point A and point B.
But there's so much value in just giving people that space to do that. And not in a negative way. You know, I always say let's frame a conversation in a way that allows people to feel like they can bring those things along without making it feel like it's this really negative thing, what they've been, just because we're doing something different doesn't mean what they've been doing is wrong . And that's, I think people's biggest fear in change is that they're being, you know, sort of asked to do something differently and maybe the way that they've been doing it is not the right way.
Stephen Matini: Based on your experience, what would you say that is an adequate amount of time for an intervention to start seeing some changes?
Molly McGuigan: Boy, it really comes down to, in my mind, it comes down to the messaging and the leadership and how quickly they are seeing that something is, is different or that there's, that there's something that they wanna be part of.
And when there's a lot of skepticism and when leadership is not completely on board with doing something or really sort of steering that ship in a different way, it takes longer.
In some cases it can take years. I mean, we know, you know, through our work that culture change, like true culture change can take three to five years, you know, in terms of really sort of rolling something out that looks and feels different to people and that there's consistency, consistency in actual work and consistency in communication around that.
But I found that, you know, when leaders are really truly on board with, with something and there's, you know, there's momentum around something, a new, a new way of thinking, a new way of doing things. And there's that consistency in message and there's that true authenticity that comes through that, you know, it can be just a few months of, you know, of starting to, to do that work where you start to see some of those small shifts.
And that's, I think the key too is that it doesn't necessarily need to be this big audacious change or big audacious thing that happens sometimes. It's, it's the small tiny wins that are the most important and the things that we notice in sort of day-to-day work that might be different.
Stephen Matini: But, you know, you really have to have clear expectations. Like they want to have everything now, you know, it has to work immediately. Mm-Hmm. and I say all the time, it takes time, it takes patience and it takes repetition. So...
Molly McGuigan: It does, yeah. It is hard. I, you know, I found myself changing my work a bit over the last four or five years or so from kind of getting away from doing just one or two days with a group and then leaving and not coming back.
You know, there's cuz there's, there were, I was always asked to do things like, you know, some sort of a team development or a retreat of some sort or, you know, bringing people together to plan for the next year or something, which I still do a fair amount of, but it's when I have a relationship with an organization and there is that opportunity for more long, long-term planning because until you really sort of get in and, and have a chance to really, you know, have some time with an organization you just don't see, I was feeling left out of the potential to see some of that change occur.
And so it was impacting my own connection to the work and I really wanted to see that opportunity to see something happen, to see something come about cuz it, it inspired me, it engaged me, you know, into the work itself. So so I've been really trying to be intentional making that change, that shift.
Stephen Matini: But I have to say that now because of digital, remote connection mm-hmm. and Covid has been a huge boost in the way I'm able to have more touch points, you know, with people. So programs tend to be longer, the budget is not invested just, you know, in a couple of days, super intense and then yeah, a matter of a week everyone forgets all about it. And I love digital for that because realistically what is the likelihood of me going back in person and to see you. Yeah. Especially if, if you're work working with people, they're all over the place, but digital, you know, for that is phenomenal.
Molly McGuigan: Yeah. It is one of the things that came out of the pandemic that was a, a, a bright spot, you know, that our work has shifted and has opened up the world in a way cuz I've worked more internationally with groups, you know, as a result of being able to, as just as you said, do things, you know, where we don't have to travel, we don't have to be in in person.
At the same time there is something that is, you know, back to sort of the, the fact that everything is so relational there, it's, it, you know, it can be a little bit of a challenge to build some of those relationships over Zoom or over teams or, you know, one of these platforms that we all use now regularly. So there's still something to be said for coming together at times to build those relationships because they're so integral to what, to the work we do and the work that they do together. But then it is so nice to have sort of that ability to have a hybrid where you can build that relationship and then connect, you know, over time and continue to build that relationship, you know, just in, in different ways.
Stephen Matini: And how did you come up with the idea of Ditch the Ditty?
Molly McGuigan: ? Yeah. Ditch the Diddy. Another, a project that is becoming more than just a project for me. A few years ago I was part of another project, a big project that I worked on for several years. I was hired to, to sort of lead up a big gathering of folks talking about positive education around the globe.
I'd spent a long time working on that project a couple years, and I was working with a couple of individuals in that project and we were sort of backstage, you know, kind of getting ready to get folks up on this stage. It was, you know, a big conference. We had like 800 people from almost 60 different countries represented. So it was a really big global event.
And so we're backstage sort of getting folks ready to come up and, and speak. And I had someone actually physically hand me this sort of bag, this what we came to refer to as a “ditty bag” a bag of his, his things, his personal things, and said, here, you know, hold this, it, it has my, my, my whole life in it, you know, so hold this and, and take care of this while I go up and, and give this this keynote.
And so I was one of two women that were backstage and, you know, I was sort of surrounded by a lot of other men just making sort of note of that. And I realized in that moment that, you know, I took that bag and I held it out of the sense of obligation, responsibility. And and I also noticed that, you know, that that gentleman happened to, to pass it along to one of the two women that were behind this, you know, backstage, even though I was literally like running the whole show.
So so it was a, a metaphor for me and a moment of time of like real clarity where I realized, wow, you know, how many other times am I being hand in things, you know, metaphorically or real, that I really don't wanna be holding , that I have a choice to not hold, but I'm still somehow holding because I have this sort of sense of responsibility towards others, or don't want make them feel bad or, you know, I, I, I have some, some reason behind, behind that.
And so we started to get really curious about that. And so a couple of my colleagues and I who were present at that event were part of that and have started to, started to sort of carve out this space of when are women more apt to, you know, to pick up these things? You know, how, how do they know whether or not it's something that they can say yes to or say no to? You know, sometimes it's just building an awareness around is this something that I can really let go of? Is this something that I don't have to take on?
And also, probably most importantly, why we are in this space. You know, the socialized tendencies that we have that come from very early communication that we receive about the role that women play and how we need to show up in the world.
And in that process, we've found that there are women, I mean, that women resonate with this topic, this idea of ditching the Diddy. So Ditch the Diddy came out of, you know, let's ditch those things that are un unnecessary, that are, are, that we are holding, that are that are wearing us down.
Cuz I think that the biggest message that we've received through all of the interviews that we've done, the workshops that now we've done in this process, is that that these things tend to, you know, when they, when they pile up, they tend to wear us down and take away from the things that we really wanna be doing. And so it's been a, a really fun journey to get, to get to know this space a bit more and dig into it and understand what the, what the possibilities are.
Stephen Matini: So I'm not a woman, but what you say resonates a lot. As you were talking, this word appeared in my head, which is self-worth. Mm-Hmm. , and maybe I'm going a completely wrong direction, but all those times in my life that I truly never felt that was good enough. Yeah. There's a thought that I have no idea where it comes from. I mean, I may have some sort of idea, but there's been a, a good partner, you know, my whole life and very often has put me in a position of holding a lot of crap.
Molly McGuigan: Yeah.
Stephen Matini: Is this wonderful metaphor connected to self-worth?
Molly McGuigan: Absolutely. Yeah. I think so. And I think that that's where, you know, you say, I, I, I, you know, I know that men, all the men that I've talked to have also said, well, I think diddies, I do it all the time. I pick up these things that I don't wanna be holding. But there again, there's just a difference in terms of how women approach it from the perspective of, of how they've been told to value themselves. And so in this work through Ditch the Diddy, we talk about, you know, things like the Good Girl, you know, like it, you know, the idea that you have to sort of, that you're gonna get your, your, your, your worth comes from people thinking that you're doing things right, that you're doing things good, that you're stepping up to sort of makes, you know, to sort of save the day in a sense, you know, that you've put on your cape and you're, you're coming in to sort of, you know, make things better in a way, even if it means that it's sort of taking away from, you know, some, your, your own sense of being or your own sense of wellness.
And a lot of that is wrapped up in to the idea of self-worth, worth, because it's this idea that I have to do this in order to feel worthy of somebody's approval or, or maybe even of my own approval.
This is the way that I value myself. And and, you know, there's, there's nothing wrong with sort of this sense of feeling, of feeling value or self-worth out of doing, doing good things for people or, you know, or, or stepping into that space of, of kind of of, you know, doing the right thing or doing, doing something that really helps people. Being a, a people pleaser in a sense.
There's nothing wrong with that e until it impacts your, your own wellbeing, you know, until it sort of really does start to pile up in a way where you're doing these things and not really understanding the impact and sometimes the negative impact that it's having on you. And, and also not realizing that, you know, by doing those things, by being that people pleaser or whatever it is that you are potentially saying, you know, not giving, leaving yourself enough space to say yes to the things that you really want to be doing, and leaving that space for those, those moments of, of, you know, of things that you really want, are invested in and that you value and that you want to be doing.
Stephen Matini: How could people overcome the fear that comes with all this? Which is, if I say no, how am I going to be perceived? I will not be a “good girl” anymore. I understand I need to make intentional choices, and intentionality is such a huge word, you know, in, in your work. How would you approach someone that feels so terrified by the consequences?
Molly McGuigan: Yeah. Because the reality is that the consequences to women of saying no are significantly different you know, than than men saying no. Especially within organizations, within, within organizations, within families, you know, which are the original organization, , you know, I mean, with any of these sort of human systems that we live within, there's a different implication for women to say no than for men. So what I would say is, and what we've really spent a lot of time again on with our work thinking about and, and writing about, first of all to sort of think about it as, you know, are there places that you can say no, where you can try it on , where you can say, you know, I, I have a, a dear friend who says who talks about saying yes in small ways, which I just love, you know, just say yes in small ways.
But, but I also think about this idea of saying no, say no in small ways. You know, try it on, you know, say no to bringing, you know, cookies to your child's classroom party or something, you know, that's a little, maybe a little less significant if it, if you get some pushback versus saying no to the big project that you know, is not something that you necessarily have to do at work, but something that, you know, could elevate you to the next thing, or that there's a lot of different implications for it.
So really think about those things that could, could, you could try it out and be brave, but you, but you can see how it feels. And then the other thing that we talk a lot about in our work with Ditch the Diddy is what we call scaling the No. And so there's lots of different ways to deliver a no.
And so much of it again, goes back to this idea that everything is about relationships. And so first to identify what is the relationship with the person that you are saying no to? Is it someone who, you know, what we call a high volume Diddy distributor , and somebody who gives you lots and lots of ditties, and you're finally sort of like, no, I'm, I'm not gonna do that.
You know, and that, and that there's not as much of a a concern about that person takes that no in, or is it somebody who you really feel a great amount of respect for and, but you're really getting clarity about what you want and where you wanna spend your time and you're carving things out a bit more. And so in that case it might be, you know, no, but how might we find somewhere else for this Ditty to go? Maybe there's someone else who is actually really excited and inspired by this opportunity and doesn't see it as a ditty at all. They see it as a delight, . So are there other places where the city might go? And can you play a role in saying no, but finding another solution for that? So there's sort of a continuum, a scale of where that no fits and how you might sort of play with different ways of delivering that. No, based on the relationship that you have with the person that you're saying no to.
Stephen Matini: Last night when you and I talked, you also mentioned the importance of pausing, slowing down, essentially. How did you get to the point of acknowledging that slowing down is something so important?
Molly McGuigan: This work came, began sort of before the pandemic? I think the pandemic was just this really sort of profound pause for all of us , where we were able to sort of take a step back and think about things. But you know, it brought way to that fact that, that it is, you know, I, I think that came out of a lot of those early conversations that we had with women about how they were able to reflect sort of, you know, a about something that happened in the past. And they were, you know, they were faced with this situation in the moment, and then they were able to sort of reflect back and think of, okay, how might I have done this differently? Or what would I have said, you know, or how, what did I really wanna do in that sit, you know, situation?
It was even asked of, of me sort of, what would you have done if you had had more time to pause in that first, you know, Diddy moment of being handed that bag, you know, what, what might you have done differently? And there was so much sort of, even in my response to that, there was so much sort of wrapped up in, well, I don't know, I guess maybe I would've said, where might, where might we find a place for this bag? Where else? Who else can carry this bag? And, and then I thought about that relationship with that person, and did I care about whether or not they were upset with, by the fact that I didn't wanna hold that bag. And there were so many things that kind of went into it, and I realized, I think we realized in that moment too that if you have an opportunity to sort of pause and think about these things as you're going along and have a better sense of self, a better sense of what you value, what you want, who you wanna do work with, you know who you wanna be with, you know, in terms of just relationships and things like that, and you take, take that time to pause and, and reflect on those things ongoing, then you're not faced with this moment of sort of, oh my gosh, I don't know what I want.
I don't know what to do, . But we have to take that time to do that because there's so much baked into it. There's so many things that are happening that sort of, you know, that layer in when there's decisions to be made when there's an ask in front of us. And so taking that time really, you know, more regularly to pause and really reflect and think about what are the things, you know, am I, am I, where's my energy going and how much, how much energy is going towards things that I really want to be working on, versus things that I wish that I could just pass off and that I wish that I could release so that po Yeah, the pause is so important.
Even if it, if it is, you know, sometimes we talk a little bit too about just even not being afraid to not answer that email right away, or not being afraid to spend 24 hours to really think about an idea or think about an ask of some sort and maybe have a chance to even talk with some friends or talk with some colleagues about what, you know, what they think about it.
Kind of vetted a little bit and, you know, spending a little time to, to take that pause and not feel like you have to give that answer right away. Cuz again, you know, because they might think, oh, well they don't, she doesn't care, or she doesn't know, or she doesn't want to, or, you know, all the, the negative things that sort of run through our head. It's, it's it's not, it's not the end of the world if you take that time, that moment, that pause to really think about it and to give it that space.
Stephen Matini: The way that I learned over time to pace myself has gone through a lot of trials and error. And now the way that I pace myself, I know there are certain things that work for me really well. To give an example, I start working in the morning and then usually I like to take a couple of hours in the middle of the day for myself, which could be going to the gym workout, doing something outside, because oftentimes I work from home just for my mind to relax. How do you pace yourself?
Molly McGuigan: Well, I, I think one of the things that sort of re forces me to have a bit of a rhythm is that I have a 10 year old son . And so I, and I do try to orient my time am around being with him, you know, so he comes off the school bus at three o'clock and, you know, I, I value greatly the chance, and I have a lot of flexibility, which I really value. It's one of the things that I value about being able to work independently and, and carve out the space to be able to do that. I know a lot of people don't have the chance to do that, but I, you know, I use that as, as sort of a opportunity to, to check in with him and to try to get my work done, you know, by a certain time so that I can really kind of focus in on, on that part of my day and, and the time that I get to spend with him.
Molly McGuigan: So that, that helps a lot. , you know, the, the ability and I, you know, I think that probably people can find us even within working with organizations, but for me, I have to stop and like take, take a pause and break from whatever I'm working on, because often my best thinking comes when I'm not sitting in front of it when I'm doing something else. For me, I, you know, it's, it's, it's often doing something physical. I'm doing something, you know, I'm taking a walk or I'm working in my garden or something. Something that kind of taps into a different way of, of, of thinking through a, a, a, a challenge or a new piece of work or something like that. It helps me to really think about it differently
Stephen Matini: When you run into a miserable moment, is anything you do to get out of that fun?
Molly McGuigan: Yeah, I definitely get there. , we all do, right? We all get into that space of, you know, just feeling like there's something that is not ins surpass. Usually for me it comes because I'm tired, and I just can't, you know, get, get my thought process around it. The way that I usually overcome that is, I think, again, it goes back to my number one core value, which is relationships. I will always sort of err on the side of finding a person in my network. You know, one of my, one I've got, I've got people that I'm just so grateful to have in my life who I can talk to about work, I can talk to about, you know, challenges with my personal life, whatever, just, you know, those people that are sort of vona friend kind of people that I can just, you know, talk about something with a challenge and, you know, something that I'm having a hard time thinking about a new client situation, a difficult client situation, or again, even something personally.
And so my first go-to is always to sort of think about and I, I'm an extrovert, so that's how I orient too. I process out loud with people . And so it's really important to know that about yourself because I'm married to an in an introvert and he in no way does what I just described . That's not how he orients to the world. He, you know, holds up in his space and he thinks about it and he reflects and he's quiet. He doesn't even talk to me about it.
So it's, I think it's really important to sort of know who, who you are and how you orient because just that whole idea right there of the difference between an introvert and an expert is so important. So yeah, I, I rely on those relationships. I rely a lot on my gut and my intuition.
I was just talking to a friend the other day about a challenging situation at work that she was having, and, and I said, don't underestimate sort of really your, the, the physical feeling that comes about when you are asked to do certain things or, you know, when you're faced with certain things, you know, is it something that you're really excited about and that you feel that excitement and you sort of can't wait to, you know, respond and type that email or whatever it is.
Or is it something that literally lives, that leaves a pit in your stomach, you know? And it's just so important to identify that and to really take a moment to, to understand like how, how you are orienting to that again. You know? And I think the last thing is just, I, I, you know, to, to be a little brave , you know, to sort of, maybe it's, you know, usually those challenges, those things that we are, are those difficult situations that we're trying to overcome are things that we're a little afraid of.
And it might be because of that, back to that whole sense of self-worth or messages that we're giving ourselves about, I don't know if I can really do this. I don't know if I have this expertise. Most of the time you do, you know, believe in yourself. I mean, believe that there's something that you have to offer if it's e either if you're working within an organization or you're, you know, working outside of an organization like, like you and I do, is there's something, there's some perspective that you have to bring that is probably very much needed in that moment. And so be be brave for putting that out there. And I often have to kind of talk, you know, remind myself of that, of those opportunities to really put, put it out there and allow others to benefit from, you know, just a difference in a, a different lens of which to to view that difficult situation.
Stephen Matini: Do you think that bravery can be learned?
Molly McGuigan: Yeah, I do. Absolutely. I think that it's inside of all of us. There's some element of it, and I think we but there's, I think there's, there's, I, I don't know. I mean, I, I definitely think that it's something that is innate and something that we shy away from be, again, because of just kind of more socialized reasons of of, of whether or not it's accepted or not to fail, right? I mean, we're, the bravery is all about sort of a, a a version to failure and how much we've been accepted in moments where we've tried something and it hasn't gone well, and people have still said, it's okay, you tried, it's fine. So that I think is inside of us and a lot of, but I, I do think that we can develop into a space where we try that again.
You know, we've maybe gone through different, you know, parts of our life through schooling, through family structures that we've oriented around that maybe bring us away further away from that sense of bravery towards something. But I think that we can develop that in, in, in humans and people to be able to get more comfortable with that. And I definitely think organizations and leaders can develop that too.
They can give people the chance to, you know, to be okay with, with that sense of bravery around something. Yeah, I think that a lot of our systems don't allow for it. I, you know, I've been in this more entrepreneurial phase of my life, for, you know, for now almost 15 years. Cause I've been doing this work on my own now for almost that long. There is a lot of, a lot of bravery and and a lot of courage in, in that process.
And I'm, you know, I guess I think about where that came from and it really did mostly come from people who believed in me and said, why don't you try this? You can do this. You know, it was, it was not so, I don't know that it was as much, it was about me taking those messages in, you know, I had, I, I was brave enough, I guess, to listen to that and say, okay, yeah,
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